David: I've said there was always something. We cannot get our universe from a true nothing. Unless you can demonsrate how. > > > > So? > Romansh: When we are talking about true nothings and other metaphysical nonsense, then my opinion, Krause's, yours or those of your favourite philosophers then they are all equally valid or nonsense [take your pick] > > If we are talking about a quantum nothing ... I am sorry I will take Krause's over yours anyday.-Krause's quantum nothing is something. I've agreed to that. It is Krause's suggestion that it is really nothing that is nonsense.