David: I've said there was always something. We cannot get our universe from a true nothing. Unless you can demonsrate how. > > So? When we are talking about true nothings and other metaphysical nonsense, then my opinion, Krause's, yours or those of your favourite philosophers then they are all equally valid or nonsense [take your pick]-If we are talking about a quantum nothing ... I am sorry I will take Krause's over yours anyday.