Kauffman I wrote Reinventing the Sacred, Basic Books 2008, in part to find a sense of God as the natural creativity of universe[/b].[/i] > > dhw: I have added in bold the section of the Kauffman quote that you left out, as it is the crucial difference between your concept and his.-As you will note, I've just given Bbella some info about Kauffman. His 'natural creativity' is the self-organizational ability he proposes must e present to explain the universe and life. As an atheist he doesn't accept chance he can't let a 'divine foot in the door'. And that is your point also. You should enjoy his books; he is like me, all theory, no proof. But at least I'm happy with my choice.