dhw: What appeals to me is that there is no beginning. [...] In the second scenario of non-conscious energy, if it can mindlessly create one universe by turning itself into matter, it can mindlessly create a succession of universes the same way. > > DAVID: Your proposal contains a big IF. Philosophically speaking ‘mindlessness' creates nothing. > > dhw: Philosophically speaking, how do you know?-Because I can think. Our only experience with planning is use of the mind. Sudden mysterious appearance of complexity without proper mental planning is called a miracle. I view the origin of life that way.