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> > dhw: [i]According to you, your God caused the BB, and so he existed before the BB. Before, now and after are one concept of time. Nobody can possibly prove anything about what happened before the BB (if it happened). I agree that one cause is simpler than two causes. The one cause may be an eternal and infinite universe of energy and matter constantly changing itself. No, I don’t believe it, and I don’t disbelieve it, just as I don’t believe or disbelieve in a single, conscious, sourceless, eternal mind. Maybe the complex evolutionary process was created (top down), or maybe it evolved (bottom up).[/i]
> > 
> > DAVID: [i]All I presented has appeared here before. If bottom up, from what, and what pushed it to evolve?[/i]
> > 
> > dhw: [i]Yes, we have discussed it many times. Bottom up from eternally changing combinations of materials. But I can't tell you how they might have acquired the basic consciousness to form life, any more than you can tell me how a sourceless, universal, conscious mind can simply have been there for ever. Two first cause hypotheses that are as inexplicable as each other. Enough to make a thinker embrace agnosticism![/i]
> > 
> > DAVID: [i]Not if one tries to explain the complex designs in living forms.[/i]
> > 
> > dhw: I accept that as a good reason for your faith – but you have always acknowledged that it requires faith and not reason to accept one mystery as the answer to another.
> 
> Reasoning about the need for a  designer is strong enough to lead to faith. In my mind there must be a designer. The complex  living biology I see and understand with my medical training requires that conclusion. You and I have different backgrounds, which may explain our different positions.