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> I have the feeling of banging my head against a wall of incomprehension here! -Nowhere does Stenger mention the origin of the universe being "eternal". -All I am doing is looking at the evidence we see within the universe and tracing it back in time. Time is a variable we measure between events, and space is a variable we measure between objects like atoms. If we trace the universe back then we get to a primordial state where neither time nor distance can be measured and therefore space-time no longer exists.-Trying to discuss this primordial state as if it existed within some extended Newtonian universe where time and space still exist seems to be where you are both going wrong. There is no "before" or "outside" to the primordial state.-Furthermore the primordial state has no mass or energy, or more precisely it has zero energy. However energy can exist in both positive and negative forms. So zero energy can be a balance of positive and negative energies. The hypothesis therefore is that some positive and negative energies by chance separated out, thus creating time and space and setting off the expansion of the primordial state to become the universe we see.