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> > dhw: Please explain how energy can evolve consciousness. Nobody can. You have to accept it on faith. Please explain how chance could assemble a living cell capable of reproduction and evolution. Nobody can. You have to accept it on faith. We only know that the information is there. We don&apos;t know how it got there. ALL explanations depend on faith.-We can only look at what we observe within ourselves: only intelligence can produce organized  information such as we find in DNA. You have to be willing to take your thinking that far. And then some of us can make the leap, and you don&apos;t want to. >  > dhw: No question about it, they [cells] are highly complex. Some people even believe they are also intelligent, as you have now acknowledged. But how many researchers do you know of who believe that the first living cells contained billions of programmes that were handed down over billions of years to billions of different organisms, to enable single cells to evolve into humans?-Paul Davies for one. See my recent entry.-  > dhw: Alternatively, unconscious energy produces matter, which by its very nature is constantly changing. Maybe matter follows its own natural laws of self-organization. We humans see what happens, and so we extrapolate laws from what we see. If you insist that you can&apos;t make laws without a lawmaker, the atheist has every right to ask what made the maker of the laws. If you insist that consciousness had to be designed, who designed the consciousness of the designer? You would like to see this as an escape route. It&apos;s not. It&apos;s a logical impasse.-You are escaping by using infinite regress. There must be an eternal first cause which provides information, not disorganization..