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Message:

> > DAVID: [i]You do not recognize how you stretch my points. For example, the Saraha desert appeared naturally under Earth's own climate patterns. God provided the Camal design to fit[/i].
> > 
> > dhw:  I was replying to your accusation: “[i]My discussion of daily weather not in God’s control has now morphed in your fertile mind to mean major changes as forests into deserts[/i].” Now once again, you agree that your God did NOT control the morphing of forests into deserts. And so once more you have your God responding to environmental changes over which he had no control. Some websites suggest that the modern camel (I presume that’s what you’re referring to) evolved about 5 million years ago from ancestors going back 40-50 million years. According to your original theory, they were specially designed as absolute requirements for H. sapiens and our food – presumably while he waited for a stroke of luck that would provide him with an environment in which he could design our ancestors and eventually us (plus our food). You are absolutely right to describe this method as a mess.
> 
> Years ago, you brought up the obvious point that direct creation is a more efficient way to create humans. But that is not what happened. Just humans without the bush of life for food simply can't work. Evolution is a messy way to proceed, but that is what God produced. As a designer God can handle any environmental problem, so He doesn't require tight control of every facet of an evolutionary advance. 
> 
> 
> > 
> > DAVID: [i] Bad luck for animals or plants is never bad luck for God. He will design to fit all needs, as necessary.[/i]
> > 
> > dhw: Usual question: necessary for what? You now have your God entirely dependent on chance to provide him with the various environments and the various survivors which he dabbles with in order to enable them to survive or exploit the new environments. And all these environments and species come and go independently of his control, in order for him eventually to produce us and our food. Yes, it is a total mess. But a God who relies on luck, and keeps messing things up, is consistent with the history of life as we know it, and your theory makes sense.
> 
> Agreement in a roundabout way. God knows exactly what He is doing, what He intends to do and how to finally evolve us. You morph Him into a tunnel-visioned bumbler. He is a precise designer who got the result He wanted, a totally unexpected human brain, if produced naturally, the most complex creation in the universe. 
> >  
> > dhw: [i]You have just accepted the theory that your God experimented in order to achieve his one and only goal (us and our food), the vast majority of his experiments were failures, mistakes, wrong choices etc., and he invented the whole system which you regard as messy. What are you complaining about? I have accepted your experimentation theory as one possible, logical explanation of the mess.[/i]
> > 
> > DAVID: [i]Yes, the failed branches are experiments in survival, and many were good designs in Raup's view, succumbing only to 'bad luck' events. God does not control every little event in reality, only those that need to be controlled. And I'll repeat, God can design around or past any seeming obstacle.[/i]
> > 
> > dhw: Fine. You are confirming your belief in the “messy” God I have described above, who relies on luck to provide him with the environments and surviving species he can work on in order to continue his succession of failed experiments until he finally creates the only species he set out to create at the very beginning. It fits in with the history of life as we know it. It just doesn’t fit in with the all-powerful, totally-in-control God you envisaged at the start of these discussions, but you are perfectly entitled to change your mind. Why is this discussion continuing?
> 
> Of course, it fits my view of God, who doesn't need control of every molecule in the universe to design as necessary to fit the current requirements. God created self-controlling systems that don't need His constant hands-on attention. The current universe, Earth's climate, human life, animal life, all run smoothly on His DNA coded instructions. My view of God is not your 
> tortured version. We can end this discussion now.