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> > dhw It’s all “interesting”. I was simply asking you where “emergence” fitted in, and I tried to explain the two sides of the argument, which together leave me sitting on my usual fence. My point was not clear … how is "emergence" more than "results in"?
> 
> > dhw No, I don’t have a model, 
> Then how can you say something is more than the sum of the parts … if there is no model? 
> 
> > dhw but I would point out that lack of belief is very different from disbelief. I am an agnostic because I neither believe nor disbelieve in a God. Ditto free will. 
> First part  … you lack belief in god … unless of course you are an agnostic theist.
> 
> > dhw There are clear arguments for and against both God and free will, and I can’t choose between them. 
> Yet you will behave as though there is or is not certain flavours of God. Similarly for free will. For example do you find yourself thinking "so and so" should not have done that and could have done otherwise?
> 
> > dhw However, your point about definition is crucial. I vaguely remember you coming up with one that automatically precluded free will: something along the lines of decision-making that is independent of the universe.
> Similar  … yet people do believe their decision making can be somehow independent of all the causal influences that rain down upon them.
> 
> > dhw I don’t know what you mean by “changing the definition” anyway
> This is what compatibilists tend to do. 
> 
> > dhw – we must agree on a definition before we even begin a discussion. I wish I could remember my own, which I know I modified after our discussions. Perhaps something like: an individual’s ability to make choices and decisions independently of external constraints and influences. 
> when you say external constraints doe this include the way the behaviour of matter is constrained by say physics?
> 
> > dhw At least that would provide a starting point. Then we would enter into all the pros and cons we have already discussed.
> 
> We could define free will into existence, and we'll find all sorts of things could have free will. Also it will miss out on the consequences of matter being constrained by the way it tends to behave.