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> >  
> > DAVID: [i]Of course in your mind Texas butterflies enjoying our milkweed, didn't like our winters with little milkweed. But they must have known about Mexican milkweed in warmer climates so they simply took off south to look for it. Pipedream.[/i]
> > 
> > dhw: I suggest that in all such cases, the original organisms knew they couldn’t stay where they were and took off in various directions. The successful ones survived, the others perished, but the survivors passed on the information, which eventually became standard practice.
> 
> The butterflies fly thousands of moles over water to get to the milkweed. They just don't mosey over. It requires metabolic preparation. Do you have another suggestion to describe how this became established?
> 
>   
> > dhw: For some of us, “cumulative culture” is by no means a startling new discovery. It’s only common sense that if intelligent beings make useful discoveries, they will pass them on. Even lowly bacteria solve problems and pass on the solutions.
> 
> With bacteria, they pass it on by splitting in two, no societal culture involved.
> >  
> > Dhw: (re jumping spiders) [i]I’d have thought the rapid perfection of a new variation is more likely than immediate perfection. The guppy experiment showed that evolutionary change can take place rapidly over just a few generations.[/i]
> > DAVID: [i]Great difference in comparisons. Guppy change was only bigger or smaller bodies, not multiple complex eyes and calculus calculations for the leap.[/i]
> > 
> > dhw: Agreed. Nobody knows how the complexities of evolution came about. I am simply suggesting that since we do know there is a mechanism for rapid change, that same mechanism (an inventive intelligence – perhaps God-given) may also account for those complexities.
> 
> Not the complexities of that spider. that is advanced speciation, not epigenetics as in the guppies. 
> > 
> > DAVID: [i]If God can make a universe from His thoughts, He can do anything else. [/i]
> > 
> > dhw: I agree and, if he exists, his powers would include the ability to design an autonomous, inventive mechanism – let’s call it intelligence – that would enable organisms (including humans) to do their own designing.
> 
> If we could find any evidence of self-design by organisms that would help our discussion. Tony thinks it is by following God's principles. The gaps in species forms as shown in the whale series implies only God's saltation works.
> > 
> > DAVID: [i]We differ on His powers. Your approach is, 'let the kids do it." Mine is, "I'll baby sit and guide them".[/i]
> > 
> > dhw: There is no loss of power if God has deliberately given organisms the ability to “do it” themselves. Your approach is God thinking: “All I want to do is design humans, which I can do without any difficulty, and so I’ll design weaverbirds’ nests, monarch butterfly metamorphosis and navigation, jumping spiders, plus every other natural wonder in order to keep life going until I design the only thing I actually want to design.” It didn’t make sense before, and it still doesn’t make sense.
> 
> If God evolves His desired goals, that takes time and requires the bush of natures balanced life