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> >  > dhw: I would argue that the pheromone is not part of a computer programme, but an instrument integral to their autonomous, cooperative, ant-designed nest-building: &#147;[i]They add a pheromone to their material, which stimulates the other ants to build on the same spot, leading to the formation of regularly spaced pillars.&#148; [/i]-But you have a chicken/egg problem. Pheromones first before nests, or did they have simple nests first and then developed pheromones? Full blown ants with pheromones first smells of purposeful design to start with. Pheromones are attractants that all animals have, and they indicate purpose in design to me. >  > dhw: but I would suggest that ants worked it out all by themselves. And whenever they come up against problems, they work out the solutions all by themselves,-Did then invent their own pheromones? No. They were a given by advanced planning.->  > dhw: [i]We have always agreed on the design issue. Where we disagree is on your insistence that only God and humans can design things, -> DAVID: [i]Planned designs require a mind. There is purpose. Weaver birds must have tried this and that over eons of time to achieve their current nest. Hunt and peck is not likely.[/i] >  > dhw: Yes, these designs require a mind, and yes there is a purpose. But why do you assume that ants and weaverbirds do NOT have minds, and are incapable of fulfilling their own purposes without your God&apos;s intervention? &#147;Large organisms chauvinism&#148;, as Shapiro would say.-I think it takes a complex mind to do advanced planning. Shapiro is referring to simple epigenetic effects in comparison which do occur at those simple effects by a series of molecular reactions.