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> DAVID: [i]Not accepted by many, but an interesting thought trying to tackle the quantum gravity standard model problems:[/i]-http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=rainbow-gravity-universe-beginning-[i]Seems a little far fetched to me, but anything to explain quantum effects. The Big bang is still the preferred model[/i]-QUOTE: "[i]The result suggests perhaps the universe had no beginning at all, and that time can be traced back infinitely far."[/i]-Dhw: [i]Good to hear that the Big Bang is now only the preferred model as opposed to the standard model. Since we don&apos;t know what might have preceded the Big Bang, we are still faced with the prospect of time going back infinitely far. So we still have eternal energy, whether conscious or not, as our first cause. And it doesn&apos;t make the slightest difference to the God argument one way or the other. [/i] DAVID: [i]True. As usual anything to get rid of the big bang, because it implies creation.[/i] TONY: [i]Actually, this is even more in favor of creation than the BBT because it would, if confirmed, admit the possibility of something existing &apos;from time indefinite to time indefinite&apos; as opposed to definitive start and end points.[/i]-Yep, the Big Bang Theory favours creation, and the No Beginning Theory favours creation even more (which it always did before anybody came up with the Big Bang Theory). So theists can&apos;t lose. Nor of course can atheists. Nobody knows what preceded the Big Bang if it happened, so you can still have time going back infinitely far, and in the course of infinite time you can have infinite big bangs and infinite combinations of matter, thereby infinitely reducing the odds against a life-inducing combination. So as I said, whether it&apos;s Big Bang or rainbow gravity "doesn&apos;t make the slightest difference to the God argument one way or the other."